Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Back-to-back PL champs 2016 and 2017.... but need to get back to relevance in the national FCS scene.
LUFAN
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by LUFAN » Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:21 am

mookie wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:11 am Big game now. Coach C win could be pathway to being named Lehigh coach come end of season.

- Yeah he'd be a wonderful choice. 23-54 career coaching record just the sort of guy we need.
Hard to argue his record, but he is 2-0 vs Lehigh.


LUHawker
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by LUHawker » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:07 pm

Seems like the "Gilmore vs. Cecchini" discussion is obfuscating the real head coaching discussion.

I was a vocal critic of the Gilmore hire both here and on AGS at the time and that has unfortunately proven itself out, even though I was hoping to be proven incorrect. One of my biggest beefs with the hire was less about Gilmore himself and more about the need for Lehigh to bring in someone from outside the Patriot League ranks. The world of FCS and PL football has changed and we need someone who brings some outside-in perspective as well as an ability to recruit in a full-scholly world - something I'd argue, Lehigh hasn't done. All the evidence you need is right there at Holy Cross and Fordham. Both programs have been recruiting high talent, adapting to the environment and demonstrating (mostly consistent) success. Which schools have not: Lehigh, Bucknell and G'Town. Lafayette is a tweener in that it hired outsider Garrett with mixed results and I'd argue more bad than good over his tenure. Colgate had a strong system in place and a senior/5th year laden team the couple of years when it made noise in the play-offs, but is now looking more like Lehigh and Bucknell with its legacy-PL approach.

We're not facing a Gilmore vs. Cecchini choice; it's really PL vs. non-PL. Is there a top coordinator at a CAA (or other top FCS school) or a top Head Coach in D2 that could move the sticks?
LU808
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by LU808 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:36 pm

HFO wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:54 pm The Lehigh motto for last 3 Presidents is "We accept mediocrity."

Top Universities by Citations in Top Google Scholar profiles
https://www.webometrics.info/en/transparent

Some of the elite US universities directly ahead of Lehigh.
Texas-Arlington
Florida Atlantic
Oklahoma State
IUPUI
Nevada-Reno
North Texas
Utah State
Texas Tech
SUNY - Albany
Louisvillle
West Virginia
Alabama
San Diego State
Oklahoma
Auburn
RPI (next closest private university ahead of Lehigh)
Drexel (Private)
Florida International
Vermont
Clemson
BYU (private)
LSU
Boston College (private) Tulane (private)
The Chinese put in significantly effort of tracking all research worldwide. They developed the Shanghai Ranking first to track scholarly output. Now it is as good of a ranking system available on tertiary education.

https://www.shanghairanking.com/institu ... university

Lehigh #801-#900 range. Down from #700-#800 range. Dropping like a rock.
Civil Engineering Global #8
next highest Business #76-100 for the capitalists
EE #101-150
ME # 151-200
Finance #151-200
CS/Computer Engineering #301-400
Earth Science #401-500

No other area ranked in Top 500 globally. Not physical sciences of chemistry and physics. Not mathematics. Not life science of biology. Not a single liberal arts major. Not a single social studies major. Not even economics.

So Lehigh still be carried by the heavy lifting of the capitalists and the engineers.


Yeah, LEHIGH has become quite ELITE since I entered in the early 1940s. Back then we competed in mathematics competitions with MIT, Carnegie Tech, Princeton, Case Institute, Brooklyn College, City College and held our own. If this is progress for LEHIGH in past 25 years or even 75 years, LEHIGH Board of Trustees needs better benchmarks and a different Executive Search firm for Presidents.

Lehigh sports is an extension of the university excellence as expressed in competition. Mediocrity should not be accepted. Utter failure should not be tolerated. As I posted previously, in face of complete failure, men are replaced, PERIOD!
So Lehigh still be carried by the heavy lifting of the capitalists and the engineers.

As it always was, so shall it always be.
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by LU808 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:39 pm

Mountain Hawk wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:14 pm
Richb-3 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:35 pm Philosophy 15. Ethics. Professor Haynes taught in the 1960s and 70s.

Obvious a couple of people people here never took the course.

Thinking it is moral to come in and buy up a struggling company, then sell off all the capital machinery, the employees sweat equity. Then to rob their pensions. I guess if you think it is ok to murder someone
to steal their berries you, this tactic is ok. Actually it is not fair to name this tactic after vultures who only eat the dead. It is like Nazi's charging Jews for the transportation to Auschwitz.
Yeah it’s just like that.

Lots of people living in the dark like you but that’s cool. We always need someone to come in on Saturdays and sweep up the dead bodies.
Deploying capital to it's highest purpose serves everyone....
LU808
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by LU808 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:43 pm

LUFAN wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:21 am
mookie wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:11 am Big game now. Coach C win could be pathway to being named Lehigh coach come end of season.

- Yeah he'd be a wonderful choice. 23-54 career coaching record just the sort of guy we need.
Hard to argue his record, but he is 2-0 vs Lehigh.


NOT too sure beating Lehigh (or PL) is the appropriate yardstick.

Consistent wins against MVC, Ivies and CAA are more to my taste and where we should be aiming
Last edited by LU808 on Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TMH
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by TMH » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:34 pm

HFO's international survey of colleges and Universities is relevant and points out a problem but I suggest it may not be the problem everyone is alluding to.

The real problem IMHO persists nationally too. Our footprint is too small primarily because are feet are too small.
In the mid 19990s, Lehigh lost the support of Bethlehem Steel which for all intents and purposes propped us up with funding, research projects, equipment , buildings and most of all jobs. The President at that time (5 Presidents ago) decided to re-brand Lehigh and in essence minimize our engineering legacy. We were no longer considered an engineering school by design. At the same time we decided to become a National University rather than a regional one. Since that time we have made significant progress on the West Coast and along the Atlantic seaboard but we're still widely unknown in the South and the Midwest. Since the US News and World Report uses peer review as a significant criteria, being unknown in places drags down our rankings.

Are we mediocre? No. We are very, very good. We are not elite yet.

US News and World Report, the Bible of rankings on a national scale has us ranked #49 T. There are about 5,300 colleges and universities in the US.

Our undergraduate and much maligned faculty is in a logjam at #13 with among others Duke, Harvard, Stanford and the University of Chicago.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ra ... e-teaching

We are also #26 in value of the education.

Internationally, it gets much worth. We are a very much of an unknow. We are very small with only 5,000 undergraduate but even worse we only have about 1,700 grad students where foreign students tend to end up in. Our footprint is really, really small. We have far, far fewer foreign students than any of the schools on HFOs list.
The experience of foreign students at Lehigh is ranked very high but there is a vocal opposition to increasing the #s
IPSY1975
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by IPSY1975 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:10 pm

Thanks to LU808 and LuHawker for keeping this discussion relevant to the Football problem

They both hit the nail on the head : be forward thinking, try a different way. say NO to same old same old ...the Cechinnis and Gilmore PL products. Instead, look outside the box to an a winning coordinator or Coach at the FCS CAA MVC or D2 level. I was thinking along these lines as well since the important criteria in any Coach is competence and knowing how to win games at any level and who can also offer an outsiders perspective.

TMH has now posted an informative and positive post. Lehigh ranks #49 among 5K other Universities and our Faculty is Top 20 (#13)..well thats nice to know but lets get better!

So the big problem that both posts allude to is how to promote Lehigh University from Unknown to Known out West and around the world

That's the challenge imo
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by TMH » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:38 pm

IPSY1975 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:10 pm Thanks to LU808 and LuHawker for keeping this discussion relevant to the Football problem

They both hit the nail on the head : be forward thinking, try a different way. say NO to same old same old ...the Cechinnis and Gilmore PL products. Instead, look outside the box to an a winning coordinator or Coach at the FCS CAA MVC or D2 level. I was thinking along these lines as well since the important criteria in any Coach is competence and knowing how to win games at any level and who can also offer an outsiders perspective.

TMH has now posted an informative and positive post. Lehigh ranks #49 among 5K other Universities and our Faculty is Top 20 (#13)..well thats nice to know but lets get better!

So the big problem that both posts allude to is how to promote Lehigh University from Unknown to Known out West and around the world

That's the challenge imo
I think we are on the same page but perhaps have differences on how to get there. We are already very good in a lot of areas. What we need to do IMO is choose a couple these areas and excel in them which will separate us from a wider group of very good Universities. Football will never be one of those areas. Winning the Patriot League or even the National title in FCS won't get us much recognition in Nebraska. The fact is athletics in the Patriot League is a means to an end rather than the end itself.

But, as you say, we should always try to improve in all areas.
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by Richb-3 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:09 pm

LU808 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:39 pm
Mountain Hawk wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:14 pm
Richb-3 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:35 pm Philosophy 15. Ethics. Professor Haynes taught in the 1960s and 70s.

Obvious a couple of people people here never took the course.

Thinking it is moral to come in and buy up a struggling company, then sell off all the capital machinery, the employees sweat equity. Then to rob their pensions. I guess if you think it is ok to murder someone
to steal their berries you, this tactic is ok. Actually it is not fair to name this tactic after vultures who only eat the dead. It is like Nazi's charging Jews for the transportation to Auschwitz.
Yeah it’s just like that.

Lots of people living in the dark like you but that’s cool. We always need someone to come in on Saturdays and sweep up the dead bodies.
Deploying capital to it's highest purpose serves everyone....
Yep. when you reach 64 years of age, and plan on enjoying retirement with $2000 SS monthly and $3000 pension Monthly you benefit from capitalism. But then you find You are down to just SS after a corporate raid, you certainly benefit that much more..
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Re: Demand Accountability. Letters to President Heible

Post by lfnadmin » Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:45 am

TMH wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:34 pm HFO's international survey of colleges and Universities is relevant and points out a problem but I suggest it may not be the problem everyone is alluding to.

The real problem IMHO persists nationally too. Our footprint is too small primarily because are feet are too small.
In the mid 19990s, Lehigh lost the support of Bethlehem Steel which for all intents and purposes propped us up with funding, research projects, equipment , buildings and most of all jobs. The President at that time (5 Presidents ago) decided to re-brand Lehigh and in essence minimize our engineering legacy. We were no longer considered an engineering school by design. At the same time we decided to become a National University rather than a regional one. Since that time we have made significant progress on the West Coast and along the Atlantic seaboard but we're still widely unknown in the South and the Midwest. Since the US News and World Report uses peer review as a significant criteria, being unknown in places drags down our rankings.

Are we mediocre? No. We are very, very good. We are not elite yet.

US News and World Report, the Bible of rankings on a national scale has us ranked #49 T. There are about 5,300 colleges and universities in the US.

Our undergraduate and much maligned faculty is in a logjam at #13 with among others Duke, Harvard, Stanford and the University of Chicago.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ra ... e-teaching

We are also #26 in value of the education.

Internationally, it gets much worth. We are a very much of an unknow. We are very small with only 5,000 undergraduate but even worse we only have about 1,700 grad students where foreign students tend to end up in. Our footprint is really, really small. We have far, far fewer foreign students than any of the schools on HFOs list.
The experience of foreign students at Lehigh is ranked very high but there is a vocal opposition to increasing the #s
Good post. As is HFO's relevant information. Personally I think the truth is somewhere in between the rosy US News rankings (as Lehigh people I think we tend to over-rely on them) and the international rankings (which seems to be measuring something different). I think the discussion puts on display the dilemma. If you're just relying on US News, why not just do things like field championship-caliber teams that boost USA people's perceptions of having a great school. If you're just relying on international, why should anyone give a crap about football at all and instead open up campuses in China? Again, the answer is in the middle.

What I liked about TMH's post is that it explains how we got here. Here's my understanding: Likins tried to make a pivot away from Lehigh being an Engineering school once Bethlehem Steel convulsed and died and pushed more towards business/arts and sciences (i.e. balancing the colleges). Since then Lehigh Presidents have tried different strategies. President Gast tried to do a massive pivot to international learning and was somewhat successful in that area. President Simon tried to fulfill a huge vision by getting the College of Health going - it's been a struggle, but it still remains to be seen long-term whether that will be a success. (So far it hasn't been great.) One thing that you can't deny - Lehigh's endowment grew by leaps and bounds. Over my lifetime it's gone from eight figures to over $2 billion, putting it solidly in the Top 50. That's a huge achievement.

Circling this back to athletics. It's an old chestnut that athletics is the front porch of a University, but more than that it signifies the philosophy and way of life of a University. Villanova's philosophy is clear from its teams - their goals at the beginning of the year are NCAA championships (in both FCS and the NCAA) while still remaining uncompromising on academics and character.

Now I'm not saying Lehigh needs to be exactly like Villanova. But lately it seems like, in football, where once upon a time there at least seemed to be the semblance of an aspiration of FCS National Championships, folks are content with... winning the Patriot League. Giving a good show in the first round in the FCS Playoffs, then exiting. Soon, it's devolved towards "having a winning record." "At least we beat Lafayette!" "At least we were competitive with Lafayette!" "Those games against Bucknell and Georgetown will be a good yardstick for next year, if we can beat them!" That's the last five years of devolving football standards in a nutshell. How does that reflect on the University - that we sometimes care about beating Lafayette? That we don't care about fielding nationally-relevant teams? We don't put up with that for wrestling. Why, now, are we doing that for football?

At what point does Lehigh, and the Patriot League, look themselves in the mirror and say that our experiment with capped roster sizes (not implemented by the Ivy League) and lack of routine redshirting (not implemented by anybody else) is a dismal failure? That it is not conducive to fielding good teams, not conducive to better athlete health, and unhelpful towards being competitive with the Ivies or the broader FCS world? Furthermore, there is zero chance of any D-I, D-II, or D-III school will want to subject themselves to these onerous anticompetitive rules.

If such restrictions were the only way to get great APR scores, I could maybe accept them - but does anyone really believe that anymore? Villanova's APR score for 2018-2019 fits perfectly with the rest of the Patriot League. Does anyone really believe redshirting and unlimited rosters have harmed Villanova's athlete academics?

Lehigh should aspire to more. Lehigh should be aspiring to FCS National Championships with uncompromising academic standards for their athletes. We don't need to look far as to how - the way to do this is to see how Villanova does it. They routinely redshirt. They don't limit the size of their rosters. They find NFL-caliber talent - sometimes through transfers. They offer 63 equivalent scholarships divided throughout the roster. And they don't compromise academics to do it. Look at their APR rates for football for the last five rates running (through 2018-2019) - 986, 987, 991, 993, 983. Those are exemplary numbers. And better than Lehigh's.
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