The program

Young team returns in 2018-2019 with tons of promise. Can they get back to the NCAA Tournament?
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Sundayamqb
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The program

Post by Sundayamqb » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:43 am

Food for thought:

After watching the Iowa-Tennessee game I looked back on Fran McCaffery's coaching career.

Then I found this page, which lists the legacy of Lehigh basketball dating to 1901.

https://www.coachesdatabase.com/lehigh- ... asketball/

Sure, Lehigh no longer is the national doormat it was for decades. Lehigh's competitive in the lower half of DI teams and in its conference.

Are we meeting competitive expectations?

1) NCAA TOURNAMENT

We've been to the dance five times in the last 34 or 35 years. That's about 14 percent, only a little more than once every 10 years. How long are we going to talk about Duke?

What's the expectation?

Frankly, we're in no better shape than many of the auto-bids in the tournament. How many teams have a legitimate shot at winning? Wofford? Murray State? Lots of FCS schools will never come close to wining an NCAA title in basketball. Kudos to 'Nova, Butler and G-town.

2) This gets back to the question I asked a few months ago about Lehigh football. If it's almost impossible for your program to ever win a national championship, why are you in that division?

What is the cost?

Is it worth it?

Some of you thought I was crazy, but ...


lehigh90
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Re: The program

Post by lehigh90 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:51 pm

I've grown more and more disinterested in the basketball program over the last 5 or so years. I've gone from attending 5-10 games a year, and sometimes travelling to away games, to going to a few games, to now watching most on TV or skipping altogether. I have grown frustrated with the success level of Lehigh in a weak conference. We consistently recruit the most talented players in the league, but rarely find the appropriate level of success, while having the best players. I lay that at the foot of the coaching staff. The abnormal transfer rate, I also lay, somewhat, at the foot of the coaching staff.

I've also grown more and more angry at the lack of interest in the program from students and alumni. Stabler is a ghost town, and games lack the energy to make them exciting. Boring games, in empty gyms, against lackluster opponents kills my interest. I find myself feeling sorry for the players who have worked tremendously hard in gyms and in classrooms to get to the level of a D1 basketball program, only to play in front of crowds of under 1000, in gyms 20% full. It's disheartening. I don't really understand the lack of interest, but I guess today's students don't care.

I would love for Lehigh basketball to have a higher place in the pecking order of D1, and would be thrilled at an option of playing higher level basketball, like A10, for instance. But, I realize that we don't bring much to the table for a different league to be attracted, and even the A10, has, for the most part, become a wasteland. Of course, we would never leave our academic place in the PL for such a move. What I really love about college hoops in that you can have a real impact in a small conference and you aren't left out, like football, where only 60 teams matter. Some schools are still having that impact, schools like Bucknell, Wofford, Gonzaga, Davidson, and a few others show us that it can be done. But, we are coming up way short.

It's, obviously, not just Lehigh with this problem. I still go to see some live college basketball, and it's down across the board. Close to me, nobody comes or cares at Lasalle, St. Joe's, Penn, Drexel, Princeton, Rider, Monmouth, etc. I see mostly white haired 70 year old alumni, who at most of these places are clinging to a history from the 50's or 60's. The Big 5 of Philadelphia basketball is a long forgotten era. It is a bit sad.

While I can criticize our head coach for a lot of reasons (postseason trips, in game coaching), he has built a very stable decent low-level D1 program, that usually has winning seasons, usually contends for a conference championship and an NCAA bid, and recruits well. But, it's upsetting that we didn't cash in on our recent success from CJ, Gabe, Holden, and even TK and AP. We were on the map, but didn't sustain and develop to the next level. A missed opportunity for sure. I also find it hard to blame the HC for the transfer rate, as kids are smart. Decent PL players, who are 21 or 22, and have had success, can move up to the Power 5 level. And, for a year, at least, fulfill dreams of playing major college basketball, in front of big crowds on TV in games that matter. Quite an allure for people like PA or BA. It's shocking, in retrospect, that we kept some of our stars here for 4 years, in today's basketball climate.

I don't have any suggestions or answers, and we have discussed them in depth over the last 5-10 years on here. I just wish it was better.
Sundayamqb
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Re: The program

Post by Sundayamqb » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:18 pm

lehigh90 wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:51 pm I've grown more and more disinterested in the basketball program over the last 5 or so years. I've gone from attending 5-10 games a year, and sometimes travelling to away games, to going to a few games, to now watching most on TV or skipping altogether. I have grown frustrated with the success level of Lehigh in a weak conference. We consistently recruit the most talented players in the league, but rarely find the appropriate level of success, while having the best players. I lay that at the foot of the coaching staff. The abnormal transfer rate, I also lay, somewhat, at the foot of the coaching staff.

I've also grown more and more angry at the lack of interest in the program from students and alumni. Stabler is a ghost town, and games lack the energy to make them exciting. Boring games, in empty gyms, against lackluster opponents kills my interest. I find myself feeling sorry for the players who have worked tremendously hard in gyms and in classrooms to get to the level of a D1 basketball program, only to play in front of crowds of under 1000, in gyms 20% full. It's disheartening. I don't really understand the lack of interest, but I guess today's students don't care.

I would love for Lehigh basketball to have a higher place in the pecking order of D1, and would be thrilled at an option of playing higher level basketball, like A10, for instance. But, I realize that we don't bring much to the table for a different league to be attracted, and even the A10, has, for the most part, become a wasteland. Of course, we would never leave our academic place in the PL for such a move. What I really love about college hoops in that you can have a real impact in a small conference and you aren't left out, like football, where only 60 teams matter. Some schools are still having that impact, schools like Bucknell, Wofford, Gonzaga, Davidson, and a few others show us that it can be done. But, we are coming up way short.

It's, obviously, not just Lehigh with this problem. I still go to see some live college basketball, and it's down across the board. Close to me, nobody comes or cares at Lasalle, St. Joe's, Penn, Drexel, Princeton, Rider, Monmouth, etc. I see mostly white haired 70 year old alumni, who at most of these places are clinging to a history from the 50's or 60's. The Big 5 of Philadelphia basketball is a long forgotten era. It is a bit sad.

While I can criticize our head coach for a lot of reasons (postseason trips, in game coaching), he has built a very stable decent low-level D1 program, that usually has winning seasons, usually contends for a conference championship and an NCAA bid, and recruits well. But, it's upsetting that we didn't cash in on our recent success from CJ, Gabe, Holden, and even TK and AP. We were on the map, but didn't sustain and develop to the next level. A missed opportunity for sure. I also find it hard to blame the HC for the transfer rate, as kids are smart. Decent PL players, who are 21 or 22, and have had success, can move up to the Power 5 level. And, for a year, at least, fulfill dreams of playing major college basketball, in front of big crowds on TV in games that matter. Quite an allure for people like PA or BA. It's shocking, in retrospect, that we kept some of our stars here for 4 years, in today's basketball climate.

I don't have any suggestions or answers, and we have discussed them in depth over the last 5-10 years on here. I just wish it was better.
Well written/thought out, Lehigh90
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RichH
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Re: The program

Post by RichH » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:54 am

lehigh90 wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:51 pm I've grown more and more disinterested in the basketball program over the last 5 or so years. I've gone from attending 5-10 games a year, and sometimes travelling to away games, to going to a few games, to now watching most on TV or skipping altogether. I have grown frustrated with the success level of Lehigh in a weak conference. We consistently recruit the most talented players in the league, but rarely find the appropriate level of success, while having the best players. I lay that at the foot of the coaching staff. The abnormal transfer rate, I also lay, somewhat, at the foot of the coaching staff.

I've also grown more and more angry at the lack of interest in the program from students and alumni. Stabler is a ghost town, and games lack the energy to make them exciting. Boring games, in empty gyms, against lackluster opponents kills my interest. I find myself feeling sorry for the players who have worked tremendously hard in gyms and in classrooms to get to the level of a D1 basketball program, only to play in front of crowds of under 1000, in gyms 20% full. It's disheartening. I don't really understand the lack of interest, but I guess today's students don't care.

I would love for Lehigh basketball to have a higher place in the pecking order of D1, and would be thrilled at an option of playing higher level basketball, like A10, for instance. But, I realize that we don't bring much to the table for a different league to be attracted, and even the A10, has, for the most part, become a wasteland. Of course, we would never leave our academic place in the PL for such a move. What I really love about college hoops in that you can have a real impact in a small conference and you aren't left out, like football, where only 60 teams matter. Some schools are still having that impact, schools like Bucknell, Wofford, Gonzaga, Davidson, and a few others show us that it can be done. But, we are coming up way short.

It's, obviously, not just Lehigh with this problem. I still go to see some live college basketball, and it's down across the board. Close to me, nobody comes or cares at Lasalle, St. Joe's, Penn, Drexel, Princeton, Rider, Monmouth, etc. I see mostly white haired 70 year old alumni, who at most of these places are clinging to a history from the 50's or 60's. The Big 5 of Philadelphia basketball is a long forgotten era. It is a bit sad.

While I can criticize our head coach for a lot of reasons (postseason trips, in game coaching), he has built a very stable decent low-level D1 program, that usually has winning seasons, usually contends for a conference championship and an NCAA bid, and recruits well. But, it's upsetting that we didn't cash in on our recent success from CJ, Gabe, Holden, and even TK and AP. We were on the map, but didn't sustain and develop to the next level. A missed opportunity for sure. I also find it hard to blame the HC for the transfer rate, as kids are smart. Decent PL players, who are 21 or 22, and have had success, can move up to the Power 5 level. And, for a year, at least, fulfill dreams of playing major college basketball, in front of big crowds on TV in games that matter. Quite an allure for people like PA or BA. It's shocking, in retrospect, that we kept some of our stars here for 4 years, in today's basketball climate.

I don't have any suggestions or answers, and we have discussed them in depth over the last 5-10 years on here. I just wish it was better.
Well said 90. The dichotomy.between Doc's success in building a fine program and his frustrating lack of same in producing Title teams.
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Re: The program

Post by StablerBum » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:04 am

Couldn't agree more '90. Attendance is down around all of college sports, so that's not a unique problem - but at this point Stabler is a real albatross. It is the antithesis of the modern sporting venue - way too big, seats far from the court, no easily accessible group areas to gather casually, hard to get to, with no natural light. It's almost impossible to generate energy in that building and it is twice the size of where Lehigh should be playing.

Aside from facilities, I thought Lehigh would be able to capture more momentum post CJ but it never materialized despite all the talent. Agree as well that Reed has built a decent program, but probably isn't the right guy to build a top mid-major program a la Wofford, Bucknell, or Vermont. I think it says a lot that he has never won PL COY in 12 years, and wasn't able to parlay 2 NCAA tournaments in 3 years and the Duke upset into a better job. That is usually a recipe for a move up and nice pay raise but it never happened.
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jimk72
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Re: The program

Post by jimk72 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:11 am

Random thoughts...........after another good but frustrating season....

In my mind the area most lacking is player development. C.J. seemed to be one of the few who came and got better from year to year. Maybe Kempton to a point. To me Austin Price was an example of a career that barely scratched the surface of his talent. A large part of that is the responsibility of the assistant coaches. Successful leaders know how to hire very good assistants who can help talent blossom.

But back to the main theme of this thread...... very good talent, decent record, but no gold rings. Most glaring example of that is the championship game loss to a Holy Cross team that went 5-13 in league, March 2016 with a full house in attendance. Still sick about that one. Brett not doubt feels the same way.

But how do you relieve a great guy head coach with the most wins of all time and the highest winning percentage since the 1920's ?

And finally...... if we can build all these new dorms just off campus, why can't we find a well heeled basketball crazed alum to donate $xx,xxx,xxx to build a new (think Sojka) arena near Zoellner. Then remodel Stabler as the new varsity e-sports venue...... and please pass another adult beverage...........
ngineer
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Re: The program

Post by ngineer » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:55 pm

I understand the frustration, but the main question is what does the U want out of the program? Once the laughingstock of college basketball, Lehigh has been a consistent winner, albeit few championships in the past 20 years. Such programs usually have a small margin for error when injuries strike or a player is not academically eligible. Schools have 'their' sports and such tradition can permeate the recruiting. It's hard to put a finger on it sometimes...Bucknell tradition in basketball for decades...they have a nice football venue, located in middle of football crazy PA and, yet, haven't been a winning program for almost 25 years. Lehigh tradition of wrestling and football whereas bball has been been an afterthought for most decades with few exceptions: the four years of Queenan and Polaha (again "only" two titles in those years), a few upward bumps along the way after that before CJ arrived. I don't find Stabler to be a bad arena for the game. The seats are close to the sidelines. The one drawback I see is the lack of good 'congregation areas' where people can hang out pre and post game, but that is a minor issue.
Today's students (as a whole) don't give a rip. We see it across the board in all sports attendance. It's a totally different culture, which begs the question...Why spend millions for a building that won't be filled? Unfortunately, we are influenced by media/tv and what the 'bigger' schools have and think we should be doing the same thing. Lehigh's athletic's philosophy is to be competitive so that we are in a position to challenge frequently, if not every year, for the league championship, and at the same time maintain our academic standards and ethics. By and large our athletics are pretty successful. Most of our teams consistently win and are in the hunt and that is what most student athletes want at PL type schools. The opportunity to 'overachieve' and make an NCAA tournament against the 'big schools' is what makes the competitive juices flow; and to win in such a tournament makes it all the more rewarding.
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jimk72
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Re: The program

Post by jimk72 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:30 pm

ngineer wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:55 pm I understand the frustration, but the main question is what does the U want out of the program? Once the laughingstock of college basketball, Lehigh has been a consistent winner, albeit few championships in the past 20 years. Such programs usually have a small margin for error when injuries strike or a player is not academically eligible. Schools have 'their' sports and such tradition can permeate the recruiting. It's hard to put a finger on it sometimes...Bucknell tradition in basketball for decades...they have a nice football venue, located in middle of football crazy PA and, yet, haven't been a winning program for almost 25 years. Lehigh tradition of wrestling and football whereas bball has been been an afterthought for most decades with few exceptions: the four years of Queenan and Polaha (again "only" two titles in those years), a few upward bumps along the way after that before CJ arrived. I don't find Stabler to be a bad arena for the game. The seats are close to the sidelines. The one drawback I see is the lack of good 'congregation areas' where people can hang out pre and post game, but that is a minor issue.
Today's students (as a whole) don't give a rip. We see it across the board in all sports attendance. It's a totally different culture, which begs the question...Why spend millions for a building that won't be filled? Unfortunately, we are influenced by media/tv and what the 'bigger' schools have and think we should be doing the same thing. Lehigh's athletic's philosophy is to be competitive so that we are in a position to challenge frequently, if not every year, for the league championship, and at the same time maintain our academic standards and ethics. By and large our athletics are pretty successful. Most of our teams consistently win and are in the hunt and that is what most student athletes want at PL type schools. The opportunity to 'overachieve' and make an NCAA tournament against the 'big schools' is what makes the competitive juices flow; and to win in such a tournament makes it all the more rewarding.
Best summary I've seen so far. Perfectly outlines our situation. Only addition I can think of: "off campus" is a major drawback for what remains in student interest.
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RichH
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Re: The program

Post by RichH » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:45 pm

Student interest. A national problem for sure. LU has unfortunately made it somewhat worse.A whole list of misteps. Stabler is OK as a venue. Needs upgrading and some remodeling. Agree on some convenient congregation areas. Not just a walk down the hill as in my day. Transportation spotty and inconvenient.

Goodman. Student tailgating rules. Kids stay by campus now for MOCOs at various places in South Bethlehem. Social life no longer centered on campus. Restrictions put on parties ended social life on campus. It is all on town now.
I am proud of our program. Disappointed and too often frustrated for sure. Like all fans, I hope for more. :D
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