Records

[lu_alum]

Crookham deferred eligibility last season. Why does the SID include the bouts (8-1 W/L) from the 2022-23 season in his career record? Deferred (or Redshirt) season have traditionally not counted toward a wrestler’s career record.

[jdalu75]

Three things I can think of. When I've asked about r/s status in the past, I've been told that 1) there's no way of knowing who's deferring until the season's over, 2) there's actually no way of knowing who's deferred a season until their fifth year, if applicable.

The second thing is that Crookham wrestled in one dual last season, and maybe the staff tracks results with a computer program that doesn't handle the new rules where freshmen can compete but also defer. That's a problem with Jay Hammond's database, something Jay didn't foresee; a wrestler can be designated as "redshirting" or "not redshirting", but not "redshirting with some results counting". The way I'm handling it is by counting the whole year if a guy wrestles in one official event; there's no way I can re-work the database structure.

Third possibility is that someone new is keeping the stats and doesn't know to differentiate between official and redshirt results.

[lu_alum]

1st point: I agree... you don't know until you get to the 5th year.

2nd point: Once we get to year five, I'm not sure why the one dual during a deferred year would count. If Cael (a.k.a., "Carl" on InterMat) can forget about his loss to Paul Jenn, and Ohio State can completely erase the eight bouts Logan Stieber wrestled as an attached wrestler (W/L record was 5-3) in his "first Frosh season", then why should Crookham be saddled with his loss during the R/S year?

3rd point: Probably some truth to this. Kind of like PSU publications stating that Kasak is 11-1 (with a loss to Bartlett at 141), even though NCAA guidelines suggest that bouts between teammates do not count on official records. Lehigh does seem to understand this rule, as McGonagle's season record is listed as 5-1. The one loss is due to a Forfeit to Rich Treanor from Army West Point at the F&M Open. Note that his losses to Crookham (JCC) and Bailey (F&M Open) do not appear on his season record.

[jdalu75]

2nd point: Once we get to year five, I'm not sure why the one dual during a deferred year would count. If Cael (a.k.a., "Carl" on InterMat) can forget about his loss to Paul Jenn, and Ohio State can completely erase the eight bouts Logan Stieber wrestled as an attached wrestler (W/L record was 5-3) in his "first Frosh season", then why should Crookham be saddled with his loss during the R/S year?

The way the rules have changed, what should count in an official record is all bouts from the four varsity years plus the bouts from the five official events wrestled as a true freshman. Crookham wrestled unattached in the F&M tournament, with a record of 4-0; attached at Midlands, with a record of 3-1 (3-2 under this year's rule change counting the first medical forfeit in a tournament); and in one dual meet where he won. So the 4-0 should not count and the 3-1 and 1-0 should.

The problem is not the rule change allowing true freshmen the five official events, it's that the existing software wasn't designed to differentiate between attached and unattached in a redshirt year.

So far as I know, the NCAA does not keep track of career W-L records for wrestlers. They're interested in official vs unofficial bouts for the purposes of qualifying for the NCAA tournament and determining eligibility. Individual teams are free to keep whatever records they want, including whichever bouts they want.

[Oracle]

This thread reminds me of early summer when there is nothing to discuss.

[1/2NELSON]

This thread reminds me of early summer when there is nothing to discuss.

CORR..ECT! Like my LOVE-LETTERS-IN-THE-SAND anthology..

IMO any bout wrestled while representing (( LEHIGH )) is part/parcel to one's accumulative record.

[jdalu75]

An unimpeachable source tells me that there are ongoing discussions on how to handle the redshirting freshmen's official results. Sounds like right now Lehigh is going with my preferred option.

[Oracle]

Maybe I'm late to the Minutae Party, but for me it's pretty simple: every D1 opponent counts, every D2, D3, and JC opponent counts. If they are in college, they count. High school, kids don't count. Now that women have their own teams, thankfully they don't have to count.

It doesn't matter to me if a guy is in red shirt. He's in college. He's working out every day in the room. If he wins an unattached bout, it counts on his official record. Jay used to highlight red shirt wins in red. Works for me.

Rules change. Records suffer as a result. Move on. There, that's fixed.

How many bouts does Bucknell take tomorrow?

[whiz wit]

Assuming Crookham is out, Bucks win 3 bouts: 133, 165, and 174 or 184.